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1.) Swamp Fox - 01/07/2015
Comments, questions, observations, opinions and general merriment here:

Go!
2.) bluecat - 01/07/2015
I thought we might get some 9 vs 40 comments.
3.) Swamp Fox - 01/07/2015
My sense is that interest in the .40 has faded somewhat. I could be wrong. What does everyone think?

What's out there in .40 in something like 18-24 oz. and the size of an M&P Shield, roughly speaking? That's about what I think most people are looking for in a (larger) CC pistol.

If there's not much out there, I would think most people would opt for a 9. People who can walk around in big coats or their favorite Hawaiian shirts all the time may have a different opinion.

Anything that's happened with .40's in the last few years would be news to me, so please feel free to ignore anything I have to say about them.
4.) bluecat - 01/07/2015
Glock 23 is 23.65 ounces empty. It is their midsize 40. The M&P Shield is smaller. You'd have to go with the subcompact Glock 27 if you want to get close to the Shield size wise.

I just prefer the larger grip of the compact over the subcompact.
5.) Swamp Fox - 01/07/2015
There you go. Something in that size range is a more reasonable maximum, especially considering grip and recoil. I just think of the Shield as benchmark (size-wise) before you venture off into the realm of pistols you might rather carry openly vs. having to work at concealing.

But let's use your benchmark instead.
6.) bluecat - 01/07/2015
I have heard some positive things about the 40. I've even heard that it is the perfect round -big like a .45, fast like a 9. The mags hold slightly less than a 9 so you aren't sacrificing firepower. Many law enforcement agencies have gone to the 40. Ultimately though, shot placement is everything. The nine is still probably the defacto standard. I have no facts to support that.
7.) bluecat - 01/07/2015
It's all about what you feel comfortable with.

What kind of trigger system do you want - single action, double action, striker fired?
If you go with a single action are you wanting to leave the hammer back while the gun has its safety on. For me, I didn't like that.
Would you feel better if you had a double action where you had a longer trigger pull on the first shot providing a little more safety while carrying? Are you willing to deal with a hammer?
Do you want the same pull each and every time?
Do you want a conceal carry gun that you take to the range too?
Are you willing to get your gun scuffed up a bit? Do you want a work of art or a tool?
Do you want a gun with an additional safety or do you want the gun in the ready-to-fire mode at all times?

There are no right or wrong answers. Discuss.
8.) Bob Peck - 01/07/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;28395]There are no right or wrong answers. Discuss.[/QUOTE]

You make completely valid points provided the buyer of the pistol is experienced enough to know/feel the difference.

State-by-state, the number of CC citizens varies widely:

In 1980 there were approx 1 million licensed CCW permits in the US. Today there are over 6 million. I would say the law of averages dictates that a majority of this influx are not "experienced" handgun owners and therefore potentially ignorant (and by ignorant I don't mean stupid) of what they want.

Like archery, it seems the instructor, the article in a magazine, the peer group, the TV show and/or gun shop are influencing and educating. I also believe that state-by-state rules/regulations determine the desire, pursuit and success in obtaining a CCW permit. In Virginia there are 279,000 CC permits, Texas 584,850, Georgia 600,321 compared to NJ 32,112, Delaware 5,280 and Hawaii with 183.

As of July 2014 there were 183 active handgun carry licenses in Hawaii, out of a population of 1.4 million. Hawaii does not recognize concealed carry permits issued by other states.

It's just plain odd that we have to pass a road test to receive a driver's license but yet in most states there is no handgun proficiency test on a firing range.
9.) Deerminator - 01/07/2015
The restrictions law enforcement have to abide by don't pertain to the public. .40 is not nearly as effective as 357, or 45.,.
Ever wounder why co's are given .40's, and not something that lends it self more twards dispatching big game instead of people.
10.) Swamp Fox - 01/07/2015
[QUOTE=Bob Peck;28400]...It's just plain odd that we have to pass a road test to receive a driver's license but yet in most states there is no handgun proficiency test on a firing range.[/QUOTE]



About as odd as literacy tests for voting eligibility going by the wayside...


[I]Examples of questions asked of Blacks in Alabama [in literacy tests] included: naming all sixty-seven county judges in the state, naming the date on which Oklahoma was admitted to the Union, and declaring how many bubbles are in a bar of soap[/I].----Wiki


[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test[/url]
11.) Bob Peck - 01/07/2015
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28405]About as odd as literacy tests for voting eligibility going by the wayside...


[I]Examples of questions asked of Blacks in Alabama [in literacy tests] included: naming all sixty-seven county judges in the state, naming the date on which Oklahoma was admitted to the Union, and declaring how many bubbles are in a bar of soap[/I].----Wiki


[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test[/url][/QUOTE] Honestly not understanding what your position is here. Are you agreeing or disagreeing that a range test be a part of a pre-qualification for a CC permit?

Virginia is an open carry state. If you have a driver's license and pass the background check (NICS & State Police) you can buy a handgun with *NO* proof you know how to use a handgun. In Virginia you can't operate a motor vehicle without first passing a road test. Both are legally considered lethal weapons.

If you want a CC permit you either demonstrate successful completion of an instructor-led class or as is the case with my CC, you watch an online video and successfully answer a bunch of incredibly simple multiple choice questions. This qualifies as handgun "training". In your world is this as it should be?

Personally, I'm not vested enough in the issue to debate it or get into a 2nd Amendment squabble. I'm just not sure where you're landing.
12.) Swamp Fox - 01/07/2015
[QUOTE=Bob Peck;28400]...It's just plain odd that we have to pass a road test to receive a driver's license but yet in most states there is no handgun proficiency test on a firing range.[/QUOTE]



It wasn't clear to me that you were speaking of a proficiency test only for CC permits. We are also an open carry state and the rules are like Virginia's. [B]Except[/B] that without a CC permit, you must apply to the local sheriff for a "pistol purchase permit" before purchasing each handgun, and to get a CC permit a firing range test is required.

I'd just as soon do away with government permits for concealed carry altogether. The simple hoop you are asked to jump through today is not guaranteed to remain simple. It's none of the government's damn business whether I know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or how to put nine shots out of ten in a beachball. Pancho doesn't take a test to wear his gun outside his pants--for all the honest world to feel--but Lefty must, to wear his under his shirt?

Maybe when we are required to pass tests in logic, ethics and American history before becoming lawmakers, I'll consider proficiency tests for enumerated rights more favorably.

But I doubt it.


13.) luv2bowhunt - 01/08/2015
I don't see a problem in making sure gun owners who will carry in public, know how to use the weapon. We make sure bus drivers get a special license, doctors and pharmacists get a certain degree, lawyers too.

Big difference between making sure someone has a basic knowledge of a weapon and "logic, ethics and American history". I can be totally clueless on that and not cause someone physical harm.
14.) Deerminator - 01/08/2015
[B][SIZE=7]AND NO HISTORY OF MENTAl ILLNESS[/SIZE] There was another homicide ( triple homicide ) close to here. Now get this;
the perp was evaluated and released from an institution the morning of his triple murder.
15.) Swamp Fox - 01/08/2015
[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;28417]I don't see a problem in making sure gun owners who will carry in public, know how to use the weapon. We make sure bus drivers get a special license, doctors and pharmacists get a certain degree, lawyers too.

Big difference between making sure someone has a basic knowledge of a weapon and "logic, ethics and American history". I can be totally clueless on that and not cause someone physical harm.[/QUOTE]


Oh, yeah? Clueless lawmakers never make you tear your hair out? LOL There's an epidemic of stray rounds fired by law-abiding gun-owners, licensed or not?

I don't have a right to be a doctor. I have a right to bear arms. You're not supposed to have to ask the government to allow you to exercise your rights. "That's not how it works...That's not how any of this works!" :wink

Looked at another way: I have a right to free speech, but no one (until a recent political campaign law in Ohio, I think, which was struck down by the courts) puts me through a "government examination" to see if I can put three political statements in a string without two of them being lies.

It's perfectly acceptable for you to self-monitor and self-censor yourself when it comes to the First Amendment, even though you can do great mischief to others when you are ignorant or reckless, especially considering "the stupidity of the American people." (Thank you, Mr. Dr. Gruber)

Not hole-in-the-head or sucking- chest-wound mischief, granted, but incalculably harmful at the upper end nonetheless. Courts award huge damages for causing financial harm, loss of reputation and hurt feelings. Entire generations of Americans don't know the facts of their own history---and act accordingly---because knuckleheads and those with sinister or self-serving motives have spoken unchecked for two and a half centuries. You take the bad with the good when it comes to free speech.

We all know that if some of the politicians and commentators on the news were tested to make sure their statements don't "go astray" there'd be outrage and then there'd be no one in politics or commenting on politics. Maybe that's what people want, LOL. But doesn't it seem a reasonable and responsible step to require some amount of qualification before you can propose laws or comment on the government?

Require a test to bear arms? That's even more of a no-brainer! Sure, why not? Bring it on. We need to look busy or there's no need for us up here at the capitol. Passing laws makes us feel like we're doing something. It's good for our health to feel productive. 40 shots on a target not enough? Make it 60. What, questions on the test too easy? Let's memorize the ballistic tables.

What other ideas for firearm certification do the Pajama Boys for Responsible Marksmanship have to save us from ourselves?

I'd prefer if government defended the borders and kept an eye on Johnny Jihad, Iran and North Korea, and stopped worrying about lil ol' me. Let me worry about myself.



But back to the 9mm for concealed carry.
16.) luv2bowhunt - 01/08/2015
Not seeing the correlation between 1st and 2nd Amendment. There are certainly restrictions on first Amendment, 3rd also. You can't say 'anything' you want to.

Western civilization has always attempted to create a safer environment in all areas. That's how they come up with new restrictions, guidelines, rules, oversight, inspections, etc.. The question I ask myself is "Is society in general safer than it was 100 yrs. ago?". I'd have to say in most areas, like the workplace, yes it is. Of course it's not perfect, but in my industry for example, work place fatalities have plummeted, mostly because of legislation and law changes.
Only natural for a society to strive to keep guns legal and safe, WITHOUT violating 2nd Amendment rights. You've been drinking the NRA cool-aid too long. They have internal hemorrhage from ANY types of restrictions for almost anyone.

I will never buy that completely.
17.) Swamp Fox - 01/08/2015
I don't think the NRA's position is my position.

I'm up to my neck in "reasonable" restrictions. Enough's enough.
18.) Bob Peck - 01/08/2015
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28407]It wasn't clear to me that you were speaking of a proficiency test only for CC permits. [/QUOTE]

I guess I hadn't thought it through completely. Logic would dictate if we require citizens to pass a written and physical test to get behind the wheel of a lethal weapon, we should also doing the same for all pistol permits (open and concealed).

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28407]We are also an open carry state and the rules are like Virginia's. [B]Except[/B] that without a CC permit, you must apply to the local sheriff for a "pistol purchase permit" before purchasing each handgun, and to get a CC permit a firing range test is required. [/QUOTE]

Just to be clear, in Virginia the law does not require a "permit" for pistol ownership or for open carry. Any Virginia resident with proper forms of I.D can walk into and out of a gun shop with pistol in-hand after successfully passing the background checks. At gun shows in VA you need a Virginia driver's license to prove you're a resident but the seller does not need an FFL license and is not required to perform a background check. At gun shows, the purchase of a handgun is considered a private transaction between Virginia residents.

The only VA state-issued permit required is a CC permit should the handgun owner choose to conceal. This permit does not require the license holder to tie his/her handguns to the permit and there is no limit to the number of handguns owned by the CC permit holder.

But back to your statement ... [QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28407] ... a firing range test is required. [/QUOTE]

I'm for it for the same reasons I'm for written and real life driving tests. To me this is more than "reasonable" considering all the well-know consequences if "irresponsible" handgun ownership.
19.) Swamp Fox - 01/08/2015
[QUOTE=Bob Peck;28425]I guess I hadn't thought it through completely. Logic would dictate if we require citizens to pass a written and physical test to get behind the wheel of a lethal weapon, we should also doing the same for all pistol permits (open and concealed). [/QUOTE]


Agreed. And I would be agin that.


[QUOTE=Bob Peck;28425]Just to be clear, in Virginia the law does not require a "permit" for pistol ownership or for open carry. Any Virginia resident with proper forms of I.D can walk into and out of a gun shop with pistol in-hand after successfully passing the background checks. At gun shows in VA you need a Virginia driver's license to prove you're a resident but the seller does not need an FFL license and is not required to perform a background check. At gun shows, the purchase of a handgun is considered a private transaction between Virginia residents.

The only VA state-issued permit required is a CC permit should the handgun owner choose to conceal. This permit does not require the license holder to tie his/her handguns to the permit and there is no limit to the number of handguns owned by the CC permit holder. [/QUOTE]

Understood. North Carolina puts a couple of extra hoops up for handguns, whether simply for purchase or to carry concealed. We used to have to go to the sheriff for the "pistol purchase permit" if we wanted to buy a crossbow, too, but I think they finally realized the stupidity of that more easily and did away with it a few years ago. I think.
20.) bluecat - 01/08/2015
For what it's worth, Kansas requires a range test.
21.) Swamp Fox - 01/08/2015
Well, I hope you're happy...:wink
22.) Deerminator - 01/08/2015
....



23.) Deerminator - 01/08/2015
hERE'S ANOTHER GOOD ONE
24.) Deerminator - 01/08/2015
i'M ON A ROLL
25.) Deerminator - 01/08/2015
The pocket 9 is easy to conceal, more shots and adequate caliber for humans.
26.) Bob Peck - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;28427]For what it's worth, Kansas requires a range test.[/QUOTE]

I'd be most interested in learning the criteria for that range test.
27.) Bob Peck - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=Deerminator;28445]The pocket 9 is easy to conceal, more shots and adequate caliber for humans.[/QUOTE]

It's a matter of choice but to me I'd rather have split second access to my CCW than fishing around in my pocket. To each his own. No judgement here.
28.) Triton Rich - 01/09/2015
[B]I agree that a person should have some training and show a little proficiency before getting a concealed carry permit. Maybe just a couple hours of classroom and a session at the range to show that you know which end of the gun to grab onto. Nothing like the requirement here in IL which is 16 hours of classroom/range time and some specific accuracy requirements. By time you finish, the cost is upwards of $400 or more. I won't be getting my permit any time soon! If I did though, I would lean towards a compact 9mm rather than a subcompact. I haven't researched it much but I would think a single stack with 7 or 8 shots would be about right. [/B]
29.) bluecat - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=Bob Peck;28446]I'd be most interested in learning the criteria for that range test.[/QUOTE]

Gun of your choice.
Three shots at 3 yards one-handed.
Ten shots (one or two hands) at 5 yards
Ten shots (one or two hands) at 10 yards

Of the 23 shots, 17 must be inside target boundary (human form).
30.) Bob Peck - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;28453]Gun of your choice.
Three shots at 3 yards one-handed.
Ten shots (one or two hands) at 5 yards
Ten shots (one or two hands) at 10 yards

Of the 23 shots, 17 must be inside target boundary (human form).[/QUOTE]

Interesting. So this is more accuracy than tested understanding of safe handling and knowledge of CC laws?
31.) bluecat - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=Bob Peck;28454]Interesting. So this is more accuracy than tested understanding of safe handling and knowledge of CC laws?[/QUOTE]

No, you asked about the range test. There were 5 hours of classroom prior.
32.) Bob Peck - 01/09/2015
Got it. Seems like the right amount of instruction and validation. Thanks for the info.
33.) Swamp Fox - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;28453]...Of the 23 shots, 17 must be inside target boundary (human form).[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=bluecat;28455]...There were 5 hours of classroom prior.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;28457]Got it. Seems like the right amount of instruction and validation. Thanks for the info.[/QUOTE]


Wouldn’t a 5-day class at Gunsite in Arizona and 1000 rounds be better?

[url]http://www.gunsite.com/course-offerings/pistol/250-defensive-pistol/[/url]

Maybe I’d settle for two days in Illinois and enough additional aggravation to keep sketchy people like TritonRich from carrying. Since the possibility of open carry as an alternative in some states is like a bacon cheeseburger with a side of chicken wings at a PETA convention, that would be super.

Gun crime would go way down, to say nothing of the fact that the stray bullet problem would go away.

In NC, it’s 8 hours of classroom, with 40 shots on a menacing silhouette target. So obviously NC pistoleros are somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% better than those in Kansas.

No wonder you never hear of any decent Kansas gunfighters.


[url]http://www.vlib.us/old_west/guns.html[/url]
34.) bluecat - 01/09/2015
Where can I get some Justin Beiber targets? LOL!
35.) bluecat - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28459]
In NC, it’s 8 hours of classroom, with 40 shots on a menacing silhouette target. So obviously NC pistoleros are somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% better than those in Kansas.

[/QUOTE]

It just takes more time to train a tarheel.
36.) Swamp Fox - 01/09/2015
LOL...I suppose that's possible...:-)
37.) bluecat - 01/09/2015
Most of our time is spent dualing and learning all the really cool phrases one must know such as "Skin them smokewagons" and such. We also spend time on pistol spinning, trick shots, wearing long overcoats, waxing handlebar mustaches and the proper way to blow smoke from the end of the barrel.


It all adds up you know.
38.) Swamp Fox - 01/09/2015
Well, as long as it's productive and solves real-world problems...LOL

Do they teach you how to read a compass so you'll know how to put your back to the sun? Because if not, I think someone should propose a new requirement...

:wink:tap::wink
39.) bluecat - 01/09/2015
Most people don't know this but you always need to check the windows above the saloon. Usually there is a guy waiting behind the curtain with a shotgun trained on you.


You're welcome.
40.) Swamp Fox - 01/09/2015
Thanks for the tip.

:grin:
41.) bluecat - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;28464]...waxing handlebar mustaches[/QUOTE]

..and those are on the women.
42.) bluecat - 01/09/2015
We are given our handles at the beginning of the class. You know, "kid cowboy", "slinger", "kansas tornado", those types of names. Then we watch videos on gunslinging, bleeding and 5 o'clock shadows.



We then break up into small groups to work on spitting tobacco, chewing on toothpicks, putting aces up our sleeves and eye twitching.

The dualing is much later in the day.
43.) bluecat - 01/09/2015


Now those are fight'n words.
44.) Triton Rich - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28459]...Maybe Id settle for two days in Illinois and enough additional aggravation to keep sketchy people like TritonRich from carrying....
[/QUOTE]
[B]Then there's the fact that once you've finished with the cost and aggravation of obtaining your concealed carry permit, there's still a whole list of places that you aren't allowed to carry including any government facility, parks and forest preserves and, laughably, on public transportation. Seems like every other night there's a story about somebody getting mugged at the train station, why the hell would we want people to be able to defend themselves there! Also, there is those little circle and slash no gun signs that popped up all over the place the moment the law changed. I'll bet money there was some liberal or perhaps government group encouraging businesses to post those and probably handing them out. [/B]
45.) Triton Rich - 01/09/2015
[B]I am quite the ne'er do well BTW :wink[/B]
46.) bluecat - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28465]Well, as long as it's productive and solves real-world problems...LOL

Do they teach you how to read a compass so you'll know how to put your back to the sun? Because if not, I think someone should propose a new requirement...

:wink:tap::wink[/QUOTE]

Get with the times Swampy. We don't use a compass anymore. We use that new fangled technology called sonar.
47.) Swamp Fox - 01/09/2015
[QUOTE=Triton Rich;28472][B]I am quite the ne'er do well BTW :wink[/B][/QUOTE]


I always suspected that...:wink
48.) Swamp Fox - 01/10/2015
[QUOTE=Triton Rich;28471][B]Then there's the fact that once you've finished with the cost and aggravation of obtaining your concealed carry permit, there's still a whole list of places that you aren't allowed to carry including any government facility, parks and forest preserves and, laughably, on public transportation. Seems like every other night there's a story about somebody getting mugged at the train station, why the hell would we want people to be able to defend themselves there! Also, there is those little circle and slash no gun signs that popped up all over the place the moment the law changed. I'll bet money there was some liberal or perhaps government group encouraging businesses to post those and probably handing them out. [/B][/QUOTE]


You might as well be a French policeman on a bicycle.

Folks on here probably heard about this one, since it made the rounds on the 'net: Semi-local restaurant owner here who hosted "gun conversation" (featuring Gabby Giffords' group) but refused pro-gun participation posts (at least) one of his restaurants "No weapons. No concealed handguns."...

And then...



Wait for it....






Robbed at gunpoint!



I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you!



There actually [I]are [/I]groups that go around with "No weapons" signs to hand out, encouraging business owners to post them.
49.) Swamp Fox - 01/10/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;28473]Get with the times Swampy. We don't use a compass anymore. We use that new fangled technology called sonar.[/QUOTE]






[B][SIZE=3][COLOR="#FF0000"]"Are you gonna pull those pistols, or whistle the theme from Nemo?"

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
50.) Swamp Fox - 01/10/2015
....
51.) bluecat - 01/10/2015
I give you a 10 for crafting that.
52.) bluecat - 01/10/2015
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28476]


[B][SIZE=3][COLOR="#FF0000"]"Are you gonna pull those pistols, or whistle the theme from Nemo?"

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]
Damn you're ugly Swampy.
53.) Swamp Fox - 01/10/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;28478]I give you a 10 for crafting that.[/QUOTE]


.....
54.) bluecat - 01/10/2015
My dog is humping my leg as I'm typing this. God love him.
55.) Triton Rich - 01/10/2015
[B] Having said all that, I do live in a town that has an ordinance specifically saying there are no restrictions on gun ownership as far as gun types or capacity etc. In fact, I was perusing AR-15s online just today :tu:[/B]
56.) crookedeye - 01/10/2015
....
57.) Swamp Fox - 01/10/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;28481]My dog is humping my leg as I'm typing this. God love him.[/QUOTE]

I was gonna tell you don't worry...Crookedeye will be along in a little while...He knows how to deal with these kinds of situations...


I got distracted by something shiny, but I see my prediction was true. Wait til he comes back and then explain everything slowly...
58.) Swamp Fox - 01/10/2015
[QUOTE=Triton Rich;28482][B] Having said all that, I do live in a town that has an ordinance specifically saying there are no restrictions on gun ownership as far as gun types or capacity etc. In fact, I was perusing AR-15s online just today :tu:[/B][/QUOTE]


How are you liking the .45? Do I remember you were thinking about getting it parkerized?
59.) bluecat - 01/10/2015
It's kind of a nightly ritual. I just don't have the heart to say no. He really enjoys it.
60.) Swamp Fox - 01/10/2015
Maybe tell him if he doesn't stop he'll grow hair on his paws.
61.) Triton Rich - 01/10/2015
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28486]How are you liking the .45? Do I remember you were thinking about getting it parkerized?[/QUOTE]
[B]I think I was just asking about the difference between parkerizing and bluing. I ended up buying the one that is blued. I love the gun! I put about 300 rounds through it without a hiccup. I carried it for half of the week on my elk hunt but it was a bit uncomfortable so I just went with the pepper spray for the rest of the time. I haven't shot it for several months, you know, hunting and all but I was just thinking I'm due for a trip to the range.[/B]
62.) crookedeye - 01/10/2015
everyone needs a little lovin once in a while...
63.) crookedeye - 01/10/2015
everytime the little kids would come over and be in shock and wondering why ''snickers" the rat terrior would be so aggressive.
64.) bluecat - 01/10/2015
It is part of life.
65.) Swamp Fox - 01/10/2015
LOL...

I knew I should start putting all my threads in Podunk no matter the topic.

This is just too much fun...:-)



Bluecat! Clean out your inbox! Columbia House keeps calling and I think they know I'm lying about your grandmother...
66.) crookedeye - 01/11/2015
I always tell them .."he just wants to play"...
67.) bluecat - 01/11/2015
When Alex was misbehaving, I looked at my wife and said at least someone is getting some action.
68.) Swamp Fox - 01/15/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;28387]I thought we might get some 9 vs. 40 comments.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28388]My sense is that interest in the .40 has faded somewhat. I could be wrong. What does everyone think?

What's out there in .40 in something like 18-24 oz. and the size of an M&P Shield, roughly speaking? That's about what I think most people are looking for in a (larger) CC pistol.

If there's not much out there, I would think most people would opt for a 9. People who can walk around in big coats or their favorite Hawaiian shirts all the time may have a different opinion.

Anything that's happened with .40's in the last few years would be news to me, so please feel free to ignore anything I have to say about them.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=bluecat;28390]Glock 23 is 23.65 ounces empty. It is their midsize 40. The M&P Shield is smaller. You'd have to go with the subcompact Glock 27 if you want to get close to the Shield size wise.

I just prefer the larger grip of the compact over the subcompact.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;28392]There you go. Something in that size range is a more reasonable maximum, especially considering grip and recoil. I just think of the Shield as benchmark (size-wise) before you venture off into the realm of pistols you might rather carry openly vs. having to work at concealing.

But let's use your benchmark instead.[/QUOTE]


So, no opinions on 9 mm/.40 for concealed at a maximum of 24 oz. and 7.4 inches long x 5 high X 1.2 wide? Huge bullseye there...:wink

If not, we might have to start a holsters thread, LOL. Or one on westerns....:wink
69.) bluecat - 01/15/2015
I think it is good not to get locked in to a specific caliber so in shtf scenario you can hopefully get ammo.
70.) bluecat - 01/15/2015
I don't know how many of you have every watched Hickock45 YouTube videos, but if you haven't you probably should. Very knowledgeable. Time well-spent. He evaluates many guns, holsters and even shoots traditional. Great guy.
71.) Swamp Fox - 01/15/2015
I've seen a bunch of his videos. Down to earth and very practical.
72.) bluecat - 01/15/2015
I don't think interest in the .40 has faded. More and more law enforcement are using them I believe. Again, no stats to support that.
73.) Jon - 07/17/2015
Bringing this one back from the dead. Since we only have 5 guys on here to read them, they fade away quickly.
Anyway, the .40 certainly hasn't faded away, actually it has gained followers since more and more PD's are going to this caliber. There is unlimited types of ammo, has better ballistics than 9mm and certainly better knock down power. There are several smaller framed polymer pistols offered in this caliber. I have several .40's and several 9mm's and carry either depending upon what I'm wearing.

On the CCW question about having to take a course, I completely agree. Here in De., we have to take a course with at least 8 hours of classroom time that covers all aspects of gun safety and information about CCW law. When I took the course, I learned a ton about CCW law that I never even thought about. We also have to take 100 rounds to the range and hit a target (8"x10") at 12' without a miss to pass the course. It seems easy (and it was) BUT, a few guys who had the LC9 and other similar mini guns had allot of difficulty and had to retest at least once to pass.
74.) billy b - 07/17/2015
What should I pay for a used 40 Glock, I used to have one I screwed up & sold it?
75.) Jon - 07/17/2015
I'm not a Glock guy, Dan is.
I see them here for $400+/- used in good condition. It seems they are all similarly priced with the exception of the Gen 1 stuff. I wouldn't pay much more than $400 for any Glock considering I can get any new Glock for $500
76.) Wild Bob - 07/17/2015
I'm a big fan of the .40 S&W, I've got a Ruger SR 40 (newer one) that is comfortable to carry, fun to shoot, and accurate . Granted I only carry in the field (when I'm in bear or cat country), but I'm thinking of packing it to the treestand when I hunt whitetails and seeing how I like it for those close shots just for the heck of it.
77.) Deerminator - 07/18/2015
I've seen a 40 cal. wound from a DEC officer on a small deer and was not impressed.
Granted shot placement is always key I think in the case of the 40 cal, bullet choice is key as well.
and Hi capacity magazines :tu:
78.) Swamp Fox - 12/18/2015
I noticed in my internet surfing last night that Kimber is bringing out their Micro 9 1911-type next year (March or later is the optimistic guess, based on limited information). This pistol is in the same size, weight and price neighborhood as the Sig 938 . Unfortunately, none of the first models will have night sights (which are available on some 938's). There is a Crimson Trace option, though, if you like that kind of thing, and it's not priced out the wazoo, Also, they do not to appear to be charging a premium for a stainless slide.

Good luck finding much more about the Micro 9, though. It is just 2.2 Oh-Zees heavier and .07 inches taller than the tiny .380 Micro CDP, which is a beautiful pistol and very nice in the hand, very close to the Sig P238 in feel. The grip appears in photographs to be a little less chunky from back to front than the P938. Weight and width of the Micro 9 appear to be about the same based on what specs I've been able to find on-line.

Just a little heads up if you're talking to Santa Claus in the next few days and he wants to know what you'd like next year, so he can plan around it.



[url]http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/micro?layer&cat=384[/url]





Don't say I never did anything for you people...

:wink
79.) DParker - 12/18/2015
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;37358]I noticed in my internet surfing last night that Kimber is bringing out their Micro 9 1911-type next year (March or later is the optimistic guess, based on limited information). This pistol is in the same size, weight and price neighborhood as the Sig 938 . Unfortunately, none of the first models will have night sights (which are available on some 938's). There is a Crimson Trace option, though, if you like that kind of thing, and it's not priced out the wazoo, Also, they do not to appear to be charging a premium for a stainless slide.

Good luck finding much more about the Micro 9, though. It is just 2.2 Oh-Zees heavier and .07 inches taller than the tiny .380 Micro CDP, which is a beautiful pistol and very nice in the hand, very close to the Sig P238 in feel. The grip appears in photographs to be a little less chunky from back to front than the P938. Weight and width of the Micro 9 appear to be about the same based on what specs I've been able to find on-line.

Just a little heads up if you're talking to Santa Claus in the next few days and he wants to know what you'd like next year, so he can plan around it.



[url]http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/micro?layer&cat=384[/url]





Don't say I never did anything for you people...

:wink[/QUOTE]

Are we to infer that you're thinking about acquiring one of these your own self?
80.) bluecat - 12/18/2015
Kimber makes gorgeous pistols. I just don't like the fact that I'll either have to rack the slide or carry with the hammer back. Just can't do it. That's not a Kimber thing just a single action thing.
81.) Swamp Fox - 12/18/2015
[QUOTE=DParker;37362]Are we to infer that you're thinking about acquiring one of these your own self?[/QUOTE]



If you wanted to infer that this could be the next canoe accident waiting to happen, I can't stop you...


But I'm not implying anything. :shocked:
82.) Wild Bob - 12/18/2015
A friend of mine that I shoot with every once in a while has two Kimber 45s. One is a gem and he loves it...the other he's had to send back to Kimber 2x for issues (he is a little irritated about this considering the lofty cost for the gun). I've shot them both; IMHO both are very nice 1911's and pleasant to shoot.
83.) Swamp Fox - 12/18/2015
I haven't figured out whether this is one of those things that you should wait a year or two to see how it works before you buy, or not. My impression is that Kimber had (tell me if I should use "has") some issues with the Solo, their small striker-fired 9, and Sig had to go through a teething period with the P938 on the 1911 platform as well.

I'm not an early adopter on most things, as many of you know. :wink

On the other hand, I don't think this pistol---if it lives up to expectations--has serious competition as a true and shootable pocket pistol in 9mm, except from the 938 ("In my opinion"---LOL) and it offers serious potential for a better trigger. And you would think also that Kimber learned from others' experiences with tiny 9's and would have worked out any bugs before going to market....Is that too much to ask? LOL...

So could it be a no-brainer?

Just some stuff to think about while enjoying a Friday night libation...
84.) DParker - 12/18/2015
[QUOTE=bluecat;37364]Kimber makes gorgeous pistols. I just don't like the fact that I'll either have to rack the slide or carry with the hammer back. Just can't do it. That's not a Kimber thing just a single action thing.[/QUOTE]

A manual thumb safety...and grip safety, if using a so-equipped 1911 model...and a proper holster make condition 1 ("cocked and locked") as safe a carry option as any other pistol with one in the pipe.

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;37369]Just some stuff to think about while enjoying a Friday night libation...[/QUOTE]

Well, it [I]is[/I] the Bureau of [B]Alcohol[/B], Tobacco, [B]Firearms[/B] and Explosives.
85.) Swamp Fox - 12/18/2015
[QUOTE=DParker;37370]

Well, it [I]is[/I] the Bureau of [B]Alcohol[/B], [B]Tobacco[/B], [B]Firearms[/B] and [B]Explosives[/B].[/QUOTE]




If somebody brought some Cheetos, we'd have us a real party up in here! :grin: